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| Heel Angle Question http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=9457 |
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| Author: | BruceH [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:37 am ] |
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Working on #4 and am still struggling with the whole neck angle issue. Builds 1 & 2 were done at the same time so I made the same mistake on them, #3 was an adjustable neck, so this is actually my second attempt at this issue. Anyway, I sanded my rim with the 25' radius dish and then flattened the upper bout from the front of the soundhole forward. When doing so I didn't just flatten the upper bout, but I also took the thickness down about a scant 1/16" at the very front of the body. So the body is now glued together and I'm doing a trial neck fit. I can run a straight edge down the neck blank and it continues to sit flat down the upper bout to the sound hole and then rises to where it is a full 1/16" away from the top at the saddle location. Sound about right? I then marked my heel for cutting. I measured it and I'll have to cut it nearly 3 degrees. This sounds like way more than the 1.5 to 2 degrees that I typically read about. Does this matter? What danger lurks? Any advice is appreciated. |
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| Author: | Kim [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:59 am ] |
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Bruce, This is an area of the build process that still hold a good deal of mystery for me as well. I can read through the steps in various books but they just are not jelling for me as yet, so I will be waiting with you to see if one of our talented builders here has a step through to offer us. I think this is one area that manages to baffle a lot of new builders and first timers like me. Fingers crossed 
Kim |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:25 pm ] |
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in my very limited experience and understanding, I would say that you shouldn't necessarily worry about what the angle is, rather worry about what the differential is between the top of the sound board and the straight edge when held on the neck/fb/fb w/ frets. This is the most important measurement when setting the neck, not the particular angle you need to cut the heel at. So, having said that, you want to have about 1/16" of clearance over top of the bridge with the fb on (no frets yet), this will give you adequate room for the top to pull up and setting the action right once the frets are in and the saddle in place. So work backward from the bridge height. most are about 3/8", plus 1/16" (as mentioned) gives you 7/16". Now minus your fretboard thickness (say 1/4") gives you 3/16" of clearance between the top and your straight edge. Set the neck this way instead of a set angle and it should work out how it needs to be. Please, though if anyone with more experience than me (most folks here) see anything wrong with my suggestions or math. PLEASE CORRECT ME, I CAN TAKE IT 
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| Author: | Cocephus [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:43 pm ] |
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Bruce, I had the same exact observation on my first build. It all worked out well if that`s any help. IMHO, Rod nailed it with his explanation. Take heart, bro! You`re doing OK! |
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| Author: | Andy Zimmerman [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:12 pm ] |
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The key is to build the body correctly so that the neck angle matches the body above the soundhole. Then without a change at the 14th.(Because the neck matches the body) you get the perfect position at the bridge. I build 24.9 scale guitars with a 25 radius OM Body. This radius is just a bit steep for my construction. Meaning that this radius places the slope of the top above the soundhole a bit high when carried out over the bridge. (Slightly too tall of a saddle) I compensate for this by flattening my neck block/fretboard extension to project the correct angle. THEN the neck heel is carved to match the body to get a perfecty straight Neck Body (14th fret) junction. I think a common mistake is to build the body then try to get the perfect neck angle for the bridge position. This perfect neck angle might not align up exactly with the body. Make sense. I I had to do it all over again I probably would go with a 28 radius top. This would allow for better body construction so that the line of the top gives me the perfect height at the bridge. The Woolson Jig is great for making sure you neck give you the correct height at the bridge position, but that allignment might not match the body angle. You want to do both!!! |
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| Author: | BruceH [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:07 pm ] |
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Thanks, guys. Rod - I get what you are saying. One thing I think is key is when you mentioned the top pulling up. Different builders are going to get a different amount of pull in the top which may be why I see different numbers given for clearance over the bridge. I think. 
Hesh - I was wondering where you were going with your answer. I thought maybe you were hitting the cranberry sauce a little early
Andy - You are right that the body needs to be built correctly first. That is why I sanded a 1/16" taper from the front of the body to the sound hole. I guess I'm still looking for the ideal combo of dimensions. |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:25 pm ] |
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Some times people will give a number with the fb with the frets or without, you just have to watch that. Also it depends on the bridge height and fb height. They are all connected. |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:05 pm ] |
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That's a great idea Hesh, when can we expect to see the first draft 
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:11 am ] |
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Hey if anyone can, it's gotta be Hesh or Billy!
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| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:21 am ] |
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those who have said that the specific size mof the angle mis not the relevant thing are giving good advice. if one looks at the big factories, martin, if i recall correctly, traditionally used a 1.5 degree angle, while gibson used 3 degrees. it is the result that matters. between using the woolson jig to get a neck angle to match the bridge, an appropriate top radius, and a sanding jig such as shown in the jigs section, you should have no troubles. |
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| Author: | Billy T [ Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:21 am ] |
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[quote=Serge]Hey if anyone can, it's gotta be Hesh or Billy! [/quote] Man! There's a lot of factors to consider! Neck relief, individual string height as they are all typically different, SB radius center line would have to be known and figured, not to mention compound radii. Then there's cantilevered necks with angled SB's. Fretboard radii, width and side taper, nut spacing, bridge spacing would have to be considered! It gets hairy quick! The math and programming is relatively simple individually... put it together....???? Tie in to a GUI(graphical user interface/fancy name for pictures), not bad in itself but multiplied by the variables? Geesh! I think it would be better to do what I do! Make dumb pictures in photoshop like this! 
See, much, much, much simpler! |
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| Author: | Billy T [ Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:58 am ] |
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Getting back to Bruce's question. I remember Frank Fords site mentioning his setup as being level to the top of the bridge with frets in, with the sraight edge, but the principle that Rod mentions is the guide. One can't forget also, the sides may not necessarily be square to the sound board. Their error could add up to a lot of difference in the specified angle. 1? would add up to about a little over .200 difference from neck joint to body, to bridge or opposite to the nut relationship. |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:13 am ] |
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I had mentioned before that its not the angle of the sides to top that matters at all .. it is whatever it is - I use a sliding bevel to measure it, not caring if its 1 or 10 degrees, its just an angle that needs to be cut. Whats important is where the lie of the frets are in relation to the top of the bridge. With a 28 foot top radius, the FB can lie flat on the top at the extension, and the height at the bridge is perfect for a 5/16 thick bridge design. |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:42 am ] |
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Man, i never looked soooo.......Graceful!
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:01 am ] |
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Looks like a mandolin to me but i could be wrong, it happens to me a lot ya know!
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:31 am ] |
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Yeah, what is he commanding here? Billy, make a man of yourself, share a real pic of you so we can torture you a bit too, you can't just keep the fun just for yourself, that would be too selfish huh? right?
Come on Billy we know you can, don't POKAK on us!
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| Author: | SniderMike [ Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:51 am ] |
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It took me a while to understand this with the acoustics, but I definitely agree with Tony here. It doesn't matter what the angle of the sides to the top is. You want your fingerboard to lay flat on the upper bout and on the be parallel with the neck (obviously), and this is the angle you cut into the heel, whatever that angle may be. You can always thin the fb down if necessary. By the way, Serge, you do look HOT!!! |
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| Author: | Billy T [ Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:12 am ] |
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[quote]Problem is that the pics that he has sent of himself to us are too pretty to actually be Billy........ And what's with this "Commander Excretion" name he goes by? [/quote]
Don't hate me because I'm beautiful!!
[quote=Wish'in for a Zoot Suit Serge]make a man of yourself, share a real pic of you so we can torture you a bit [/quote] Yea! It really feels unfair doesn't it? Just the way I'm starting to like it!
"El Commandante Maquina" = "Commander Machine" I do have to admit Serge, you have real style in that one! That certain "je ne sais quoi"(I don't know what)! The hair, the dress, le chapeau certainement - "Se magnifique"!!! |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:12 pm ] |
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Ok you funny dude, don't forget that i can be really creative and help Hesh make a series of Billy Tunes for the world to see, you still are tooo chicken to show your mug huh? POK POK POK POKAAAAAKKKKKK Chicken, chicken!
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